Monday, September 13, 2010

Evidence is the Best Way to Discover Truth

So say many atheists who adhere to scientism. But this statement is obviously self defeating. I assume they think that statement itself is true, but there's no way to verify it by its own standard. There's no empirical data that could be collected by which to verify this assertion. It's just one of those pesky unfounded presuppositions that atheists throw around.

18 comments:

exreformed said...

Your only defense is to try and go on offense and pick apart so called inconsistencies within other world-views. Yet you do not apply the same standard to the Christian World view, because if you did so it would destroy your faith. Yes, that is what it boils down to, You must rely on faith not reason.

Quote Bill Craig all you want, all an honest thinking person has to do to reject the Bible is just read the Bible itself.

Have you heard any talking donkeys today?

bossmanham said...

My defense is to go on offense?

Well yes, that is part of my strategy in defending Christianity; show the inconsistencies in other belief systems.

How do you know I haven't applied the same standard to Christianity? I scrutinize my faith constantly. It doesn't contain these overt inconsistencies.

Where in this post did I quote Craig? Why shouldn't I when I do? He's a pretty able apologist.

Have you heard any talking donkeys today?

No, but there's no contextual reason for God to do such a thing right now.

exreformed said...

Blame it on the old "things like that don't hapen anymore" That is hogwash

bossmanham said...

I never said they didn't happen any more. In my context, I don't see why God would need a donkey to talk to me. You do know in the new covenant, things are a bit different, right?

exreformed said...

Yes I know about the new covenant. Of course it is just part of the mental gymnastics you have to do to get out of a pickle.

What about all the miracles in the new testament? Remember Herod dropped dead for not giving glory to god. So Why did Hitler not drop dead?

bossmanham said...

Yes I know about the new covenant. Of course it is just part of the mental gymnastics you have to do to get out of a pickle.

It'd be interesting to see how I was in a pickle in the first place, but even if I was and I provided a solution for that "pickle" then it's no longer a pickle.

What about all the miracles in the new testament? Remember Herod dropped dead for not giving glory to god. So Why did Hitler not drop dead?

I don't know why God works the way He does all the time. He hasn't chosen to reveal all of His reasons to me. Recall that Hitler did drop dead, however. Herod lived a long time not glorifying God before he dropped dead, remember?

You also seem to be assuming that God needs to act the way YOU think He should act. Who are you? Why should we think God would behave the way an apostate thinks He should? That seems awful presumptuous of you.

trackstrhouk13 said...

There is evidence that you can use to back up this claim. Look at all the different ways of justifying beliefs and see which ones turn out to actually lead to true beliefs. Is there even any other way of justifying a belief than gathering eviedence for the truth of it?

exreformed said...

The Pickle you are in has to do with Miracles. Are you a Pentecostal? Do you believe that the same miracles the disciples preformed in the N.T. takes place today? Are you a Baptist that believes that the miracles were only for the time of the disciples.

Why did some people believe that Jesus was John the Baptist rose from the dead? They believed so because that was a common suppositious belief of that time. Have you heard of any people rising from the Dead in the last few hundred years?

Of course God has not chosen to reveal all his reasons to you, that is always a good excuse to fall back on. The reality is you have to tell yourself these things to believe such rubbish.

Now you are accusing me of putting demands on God. Who am I “an apostate to make demands to the almighty God? You mean like simply wanting to know why is such a gravies error that it would warrant eternal damnation.

bossmanham said...

There is evidence that you can use to back up this claim. Look at all the different ways of justifying beliefs and see which ones turn out to actually lead to true beliefs.

Um, that's blatantly begging the question. You have to assume that the statement is true and then apply it to test if it's true.

Is there even any other way of justifying a belief than gathering eviedence for the truth of it?

Yes.

The Pickle you are in has to do with Miracles. Are you a Pentecostal? Do you believe that the same miracles the disciples preformed in the N.T. takes place today? Are you a Baptist that believes that the miracles were only for the time of the disciples.

I think miracles still happen today. I do not think they happen as charismatics sometimes display them as happening.

Why did some people believe that Jesus was John the Baptist rose from the dead? They believed so because that was a common suppositious belief of that time. Have you heard of any people rising from the Dead in the last few hundred years?

What does that have to do with common Jewish beliefs, which did not include this type of resurrection? Herod, whom is who Matthew records as speculating that Jesus was John the Baptist, wasn't Jewish. The Romans did hold to some superstitious views about the dead, but they were nothing like the resurrection Jesus experienced. But this wouldn't explain how Jews would suddenly come to believe that a man had been resurrected to glory before the general resurrection.

What do you do with the preponderance of good historical evidence for the resurrection, which would seem to coincide well with your personal experience of Christ?

Now you are accusing me of putting demands on God.

Yes. You're acting as if God doesn't act exactly how you think He should that something is wrong. Since when did the Bible portray THAT kind of God?

bossmanham said...

A few more thoughts on Herod. Just because HE thought it was possible doesn't mean that it was a common belief. It acknowledges that Jesus was working wonders of some sort. Herod had a reason to fear some sort of divine retribution since he put JTB to death without a just reason.

exreformed said...

Really, miracles happen today do they?

Please provide evidence for one.

trackstrhouk13 said...

//Um, that's blatantly begging the question. You have to assume that the statement is true and then apply it to test if it's true.//

You're moving the goal posts. Orginally, you said that the statement was not internally consistent. All I'm doing is showing that the statement is internally consistent.

Would you mind listing alternative ways to justify knowledge?

exreformed said...

trackstrhouk13, You are a typical asinine christian(does not deserve to be capitalized), yes that is ad hominemm and I don't give a rip.

Only a deluded minded Christan can turn a simple question of "Please Provide evidence for a miracle" into a debate about epistemology. Of course that is what you have to resort to because your arguments for miracles are bunk.

Sense when is asking for proof of a miracle begging the question? The Bible begs the question because "the bible is god's word because the bible says it's gods word.

Bossmanham
Historical evidence for the resurrection(LOL)
Hey friend, I used to believe in the resurrection was just as real as the skin on my bones as the apologist Haank Hanegraaff would say. I have read "Who Moved The Stone" by Frank Morison and I have read dozens of others on the arguments for the resurrection. I have also listened to debates. I don't desire to waste my breath rehashing them again. I know what I believe and I know PEOPLE DO NOT RISE FROM THE DEAD!

trackstrhouk13 said...

calm down, bro. when i put something in //quote//, it means i'm quoting something. I was responding to brennon. I'm an atheist btw.

exreformed said...

Don't I fell like a smart guy now,

LOl, I still would not put it past a fundy to argue that way.

exreformed said...

still watin for that proof.

bossmanham said...

OK guys, a long protracted discussion may not be possible since I am so busy with school and work as of late. I will try to answer, but no guarentee.

Really, miracles happen today do they?

Please provide evidence for one.


What do you mean by evidence? I could give you second or third hand accounts from people I know. Do you mean empirical evidence? How am I supposed to do that over the internet for miracles that happened in the past?

If testimony is evidence (which it is for the person not dedicated to some weird scientism) the evidence for Jesus' resurrection is quite strong. I recommend Licona and Habermass' book for starters.

You're moving the goal posts. Orginally, you said that the statement was not internally consistent. All I'm doing is showing that the statement is internally consistent.

No one is moving the goalposts. You have to assume the statement is true to observe the evidence that would tell you it's true. That's begging the question, and further adds to the case that it is self refuting. You can't test this statement to see if it is true so you can apply the statement to your epistemology.

Would you mind listing alternative ways to justify knowledge?

Some beliefs are properly basic. You can't test them with evidence. I could list a half a dozen or so required for the scientific endeavor that naturalists have no basis for.

exreformed,

Only a deluded minded Christan can turn a simple question of "Please Provide evidence for a miracle" into a debate about epistemology

I don't believe I'm the one who started that, but I think it's at the heart of the discussion of whether methodological naturalism is justified.

still watin for that proof.

You need to understand that some of us have lives outside the internet, ex. I can't be on here all day to respond to you.

A.M. Mallett said...

Have you heard any talking donkeys today?

Absolutely and I've even read some of the words they wrote.